Prabhupāda: And what is your credit? It is already there for millions of years. Why you are anxious to produce this? Without your help it is being produced. So why you spending our hard-earned money and cheating us? You are cheater. You should be punished. These things are already going on. For you there is no scarcity of life. Then why you are spending our tax to show your talent? What is your talent? You are simply cheating us—"We shall do it..." You do or do not, the things are already there. Why you are taking our money to make research? You are cheating us. You should be punished. You will be punished. Even the state does not punish, you'll be punished by the Supreme Lord because you are cheating. So you can cheat us, but you cannot cheat God. Regular punishment will be there. Millions of years it has been going on, and I want to tell (?) you, just tell (?) you (indistinct). The same example-millions of dogs are barking, and this man has learned how to bark. He is selling tickets. You see? You are driving away barking dog, and because this rascal has learned how to bark, you have to pay for it. What do you say?
Yaśodānandana: So they would say, "Well, we do not claim any credit, but, similarly, you cannot give God credit, because it is going on as a biochemical reaction."
Prabhupāda: Why not? That is your rascaldom. You cannot produce it. Why do you say like that? You rascal, you produce by biochemical combination. That is your rascaldom. That is not science. You are talking like a child. That's all. Credit must be given to God. He's already doing it very systematically. Why shall I... I am not such a fool that I have to give credit to you.
Yaśodānandana: No, that is not the question, to give credit to me. But just because you can't...
Prabhupāda: Anyone who is producing, either or God or somebody, or somebody is doing that. I must see, (indistinct) ...not to you. You may not accept God, but somebody is doing that. As you are trying to do it, similarly, somebody else is already there. Therefore he should get the credit. Why you are claiming to get the credit? That is not right. Anybody... Just like you are somebody, you are trying to take all the credit. So similarly, somebody is already doing. So he should get the credit.
Yaśodānandana: Their objection is to "he."
Prabhupāda: But why you are "he"?
Yaśodānandana: Oh, I'm simply attempting.
Prabhupāda: Attempting... You are "he"? You are person. You are attempting. You are foolish, you are attempting. But there is another person who has already done it. As you are a person, you are trying to do it, it is being already done by another person.
Yaśodānandana: Maybe because I am person...
Prabhupāda: That is not maybe. Maybe... As soon as you say "maybe" then you'll be slapped. No knowledge. It is not a question of "maybe." It must be factual. Is that all right?
Prabhupāda: Attack these rascals strongly in big, big meetings, and slap them, "Why you are cheating and spending our hard-earned money, taxes?" Better follow us. We are giving all credit to the person who has already..., going on with the big man. Very systematically it is going on. For ourself, we are human being. When there are long hairs, we cut. That person's (indistinct) is so nice... nobody's going to cut the (indistinct) ...of the street. But annually, they are already being changed. The whole (indistinct), thrown away. Who's doing that? You must get credit. It is very nice here in the springtime.
Brahmānanda: They have never seen God. They can see chemicals, but they cannot...
Prabhupāda: You are trying. How you can see? You rascal, you are blind. You, how can you see? You have to treat your eyes, then you will see. We are seeing. We are not blind like you. You are blind. You require treatment. You come to the treatment. You cannot see.
Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Yaśodānandana: They don't have faith in the doctor.
Prabhupāda: Then how he claims to..., claims others' faith upon him? He's more than a doctor? Doctor is also as good as scientist as you are. If you do not have faith in the doctor why do you claim people should have faith in you? Where is the proof that you'll be able? Why you are asking us blindly to follow you? What is your answer?
Nitāi: Sometimes they say that if we can control, if we can produce...
Prabhupāda: But I'm protesting that you cannot control. You are rascal. You are thinking like that. That is our charge against you, that you cannot control. In the history there is not a single instance that man has controlled nature. But nature has controlled man. That is the history. Where is the proof that you shall control? You are controlled. Nature is forcing you to become an old man. You are becoming. You control like that, that you remain a young man. Nature is controlling you to die. You control nature that death will not be forced upon me. So where is the history that man has controlled nature?
Nitāi: They say that now we are controlling atomic energy and now we are controlling...
Prabhupāda: What is that atomic energy? What is the use of it? We'll die. Without atomic energy you'll die. What is that control? Death is already there, and you're utilizing atomic energy for death, that's all. So what is your credit? You use atomic energy that you'll not die. Then it is control. Death is already there. You might have atomic energy or no atomic energy—you have to die. By atomic energy you are accelerating the same problem of death, that's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are learning how to become deathless.
Yaśodānandana: They will argue...
Prabhupāda: That is foolishness. That is called hope against hope. That is foolishness. Therefore we say because you are expecting like that, therefore we understand that you are a fool. We can immediately understand, "Here is a grand fool." That is our study. Many fools have done like that, and you are one of them, you are also scientific (indistinct). Therefore our conclusion is "You are Fool No. 1."
Devotee: We may not be able to actually stop death, but while we're here we can at least prolong our lifetime and...
Prabhupāda: That also you cannot do. Where is the proof?
Devotee: Well, at the atomic research plants...
Prabhupāda: Oh, that is another foolishness, I say. You have not done it. You are simply expecting. Hope against hope. That's all.
Devotee: But they are making different cures for critical diseases that are causing deaths...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But that does not mean there will be no disease. That is already being done by many medical practitioners. Better medicine. But where is the medicine that will not be disease.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Gradually we are eliminating one by one all the diseases.
Prabhupāda: No, that you have not done. No disease... You have increased diseases. You have stopped one disease and increased another. Not stopped! But you have increased another disease.
Devotee: We have to learn though how to prevent all these diseases.
Prabhupāda: Therefore you are fool. You have to learn. That means you have to learn, means you are fool.
Yaśodānandana: But we are learning.
Prabhupāda: Don't assert it, that you have done it already, you shall do it... As soon as you say we have to learn, that means you are fools. And while you are student, why you are claiming all these perfections? You have to learn. That you have to learn from us.
Brahmānanda: Actually, when I was in Germany, there was evidence of how the scientists increased disease. They invented some vaccine to counteract influenza, and they injected all of Germany with this vaccine. But what happened is sometimes the body builds up resistance to these vaccines and produces another germ. So, as a result, another type of influenza was created, which was far more worse than the previous. It made people get fever for four and five days straight, 105 degrees.
Prabhupāda: That is the way of... They have discovered this streptomycin, for tuberculosis, that if one takes too many injections of streptomycin, then it does not act.
Devotee: He becomes immune.
Brahmānanda: So as a result of the vaccine they created a worse type of influenza, and they have nothing to counteract that worse type. So now they have to invent another type.
Prabhupāda: These rascals give trouble to the people, especially in India. They are not after the vaccine. They will catch people and force them. Just see. This is going on. (indistinct) ...others are avoiding, they are going, going this way, that way. Sometimes they fall, they do not know, and capture (indistinct) These rascals are creating havoc. Only to kick them on their face with shoes. That's all. The so-called scientists and biologists and... They do not know anything.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You were saying that all the scientists are fools and rascals but they may challenge, "How has your knowledge benefited you?"
Prabhupāda: Your knowledge has not benefited you. Our taking your so-called science has benefited you because you are using it for Kṛṣṇa. You have worked so hard, so result is going to Kṛṣṇa. Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are making the best... (indistinct) ...there is chair but we don't care for the chair. We can sit down. But if it is available we don't reject it. Therefore (indistinct) ...you have made a chair and (indistinct) ...Not that I require your chair, without your chair I will, shall die. That is not my policy. You rascal, you have done something, I'm using it for your benefit. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They may argue that the knowledge which you say you have, it doesn't stop all of these things from happening to you. You're also suffering from symptoms of...
Prabhupāda: Yes. But I'm trying because I have got this material body like you, so I have to suffer like you. But I'm making treatment. You are not making treatment.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But the effects appear to be the same on everyone.
Prabhupāda: No. We are not so much after doctors or medical...
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Your students also suffer from diseases and all...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. So long the body's there, one has to suffer. That we tolerate. That is advised in the Bhagavad-gītā,
mātrā sparśās tu kaunteya
tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata
Titikṣa, we know how to tolerate. We are not mad after curing. We know these things will happen so long I have got this body.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So your difference is that you tolerate, whereas the scientists don't.
Prabhupāda: Because we know that there is no cure. You do not know. You are trying to cure. That is the difference between you and me. We know so long I have got this body, I'll have to suffer. So we do not stop our business. We tolerate and do our business. That's all. But you have no business. You are simply trying, hope against hope. But it will never be fulfilled. Just like birds, bees, they do not know science. But so long they have got this body, they are also sometimes diseased. But they have no science, how they are cured? The same thing, just like this tree, they have no scissors, so how their leaves are being trimmed, falling down, (indistinct). We have discovered scissors, or clippers, but you have no clippers. How their hairs, or their leaves are being cut?
Devotee: Prabhupāda, according to archeological findings primitive man, before, when they would get some disease they would just die. And now modern science has developed so nicely...
Prabhupāda: That is there. And who is not dying now?
Devotee: Well, but...
Prabhupāda: Well, well, well...
Devotee: ...they died at thirty, forty years old. Now we're dying at a hundred years old.
Prabhupāda: So what is the difference? You die after forty years or hundred years? These trees dies after thousands years. Does it mean the trees are better than you? (Devotees laugh) If one dies after one thousand years, does it mean his life is successful?
Devotee: But all of us want to live longer.
Prabhupāda: Why? Who is allowing to live long? If you trying to live longer, already trees are living longer than you. Then a tree is better than you? By living longer you want to take some credit, then trees should be given that credit. That is the point. Many big, big men, they lived for short time. Just like Śaṅkarācārya lived for thirty-two years, Caitanya Mahāprabhu lived for forty-eight years. They're still living! There are so many followers of Śaṅkarācārya, so many followers of Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Kṛṣṇa, told that He lived for 125 years and Kṛṣṇa is still living.
Yaśodānandana: Jesus Christ only lived for 36 years.
Prabhupāda: Who's caring for any tree who lives for five thousand years? If that is your point, to live long is a great credit, there are already so many living entities who live long, longer than you.
Devotee: Well they don't... they may be living a long time but they don't have the same intelligence how to use their life span...
Prabhupāda: (indistinct) ...the dogs also got intelligence, the hogs also got intelligence. The intelligence which you are claiming, that is all discussed in Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam. It is said yes they are living, but you don't see that breathing. So then the vastra, the bellow, it is breathing. "Waa, waa, waa, waa." It is breathing in the (indistinct) and it is (indistinct), the vastra. It is breathing (indistinct). Here they are living but you don't see they have any sex enjoyment (indistinct). The dogs and hogs, they are having very good sex enjoyment, even on the street, without any restriction, and begetting three dozen children in a year. And they give credit to whom?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Apart from science, we have very nice philosophy and literature, studying art.
Prabhupāda: That is real science. Science we admit, but your science is not. You are trying to go against the laws of nature.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: What about our art and literature which just shows that...
Prabhupāda: No. That is different department so far science is concerned. But pure science is useless, simply useless.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: If we acknowledge that, suppose we acknowledge that, but we say that still our cultural advancements are very great. The students say that...
Prabhupāda: That's a fact. That's a fact.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They say "Why...?" Many people I meet in the university they're not involved with science very much. Their main dealings are with culture, literature, arts, philosophy, music. They say... He feels we have very wonderful, beautiful things to study so why should we take up studying what you have to offer. There's so much to study with what we're doing. Why should we join your movement? Why should we give up studying such beautiful music and art and literature?
Prabhupāda: Because you'll like it. And there is beautiful sounds, you'll hear it. Even animals hear it.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you sing the same song all the time.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. But do you hear it? As soon as you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra hundreds of persons, they'll have to hear it. Ask them not to hear it. You go, you scientists, (indistinct) ...don't hear it. They hear it. That's all.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But your music is of one chanting is very limited. Chanting...
Prabhupāda: First of all you finish this limited, then you go to unlimited. You have no experience of this limited, what to speak of the unlimited. Kṛṣṇa has described you mūḍhās, and you have taken (indistinct) are mūḍhās. (indistinct) ...to have to take credit in so many way that our conclusion is following the footsteps of Kṛṣṇa. You are all mūḍhās.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Just like some people may express God by chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa but we can also express God through our musical talent. [break]
Prabhupāda: You decorate God so nicely (indistinct) ...art painting, everything. They, putting art, so many thing, (indistinct). There's no scarcity of art painting.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We are trying to attain the Supreme through our own music. We are doing that through our own mus...
Prabhupāda: No. That is... That is another nonsense. We are trying to please the Supreme by the Supreme music. Golokera prema-dhana hari-nāma-saṅkīrtana. These sounds are not (indistinct) These are Vaikuṇṭha songs. Nārada muni bājaya vīṇā rādhikā-ramaṇa nāme. It is words by Nārada Muni. It is not manufactured here.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Don't you think that the great musicians like Bach, they were inspired by God to make this music.
Prabhupāda: But they (indistinct) do not believe in God. So that is another thing. But this music is like you are hearing music ten thousand miles away. Similarly, this music is being imported from Vaikuṇṭha many millions and many millions of miles away. So this is not just music of this mundane sound. Otherwise why you are not tired repeating it for many, many days? Any mundane sound, we repeat it, you cannot prolong it. You cannot prolong it. But we are (indistinct) only Hare Kṛṣṇa and you can chant this. And you also hear it. You (are) attracted.
Yaśodānandana: You have said that variety is the mother of enjoyment. So we are enjoying many different songs.
Prabhupāda: Unless there is variety how we are enjoying.
Yaśodānandana: Yes. So therefore you only have one song. But we have many songs.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Who cares for you.
Yaśodānandana: So many people.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But there are so many symphonies...
Prabhupāda: That is our credit. We have got one song and we are attracting so many. You have got many songs but you attract yourself only. That...
Devotee: When there is a symphony orchestra, ten thousand, twenty thousand people have come to hear.
Prabhupāda: But who takes it seriously?
Devotee: They all do.
Prabhupāda: They stay here and go away. That's all... Temporary, temporary.
Devotee: But then they will also buy the record and listen at home.
Prabhupāda: That's all right, but our song, we are chanting always, where is that song you have got? You have got (indistinct) ...he has to give new record. Nobody cares for the old record. (indistinct) ...then his business will stop. If you say that "I have given one song, that's all." (everybody laughs) Who'll care for it? That is our credit.
Devotee: But they will say only a select few are interested in that Hare Kṛṣṇa song.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. Not select few. They're increasing the number, many thousands. Cannot say select few. Select few was beginning (indistinct) ...I was chanting (indistinct). And now that it is not select few and it will increase. But the song is the same. That is our credit.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Going back to science again...
Prabhupāda: Going back... Where is science? Going back to hell again. Say "going back to hell again". Say like that. (chuckles) Because that is not science. That is our charge. You can say like that: "Going back again to hell."
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: We wanted to talk to you about the moon. We have read your statement that you say that man has not gone to the moon, but we have seen...
Prabhupāda: Not only now, I've said long, long years ago. That this is all childish.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Yes. But how can you say this when we have so much proof that we have gone to the moon?
Prabhupāda: But that proof is with you. I have not gone with you. I don't believe you because, according to you, unless you see, you don't believe. I have not seen so I don't believe.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: You have not seen the North Pole but you believe it.
Prabhupāda: Ah ha. You materialistic people say that "We have not seen God, therefore don't believe." Therefore I say, "I have not gone with you, that you have gone to moon, I don't believe." That's all. Finished. How can I believe? You say that you have gone. But I have not gone with you. So how can I believe. That's all. That is my argument. You did not take me with you. How can I believe?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Pictures.
Prabhupāda: Why I shall believe pictures? I have not seen it. This is false picture. As you say that you could not saw God therefore don't believe. Therefore I say that I did not go with you, I don't believe.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we can arrange to put you on a ship to take you to the moon.
Prabhupāda: When you take then I shall believe.
Devotee: Well, we can show some rocks. We can show some rocks that you won't find anywhere on this planet.
Prabhupāda: No, that is refuted. The other scientists, they have said these rocks can be found here.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: One thing is that in your Vedas it says that the atom is the smallest particle but yet we have...
Prabhupāda: No, smaller than atom there is. Atom is called paramāṇu. Then it is anugra paramāṇu, (?) smaller than the atom.
Devotee: Does that mean the electrons?
Prabhupāda: Whatever you say. But śāstra is there. (devotees laugh) Be convinced of your footing, (chuckles) otherwise you'll be defeated.
Devotee: Śrīla Prabhupāda, the other day we were talking about proving different assumptions through archeological findings.
Prabhupāda: That is also bogus. Archeological findings is bogus.
Brahmānanda: But it seems that big skeletons of all these big dinosaurs...
Prabhupāda: That we have already information. We have got timiṅgala. Just like big house. They can swallow up, what is called?
Devotee: Whale. Whale.
Prabhupāda: Whale (indistinct).
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No but these dinosaurs move on the land. They're not fish. And they're very big and we have information...
Prabhupāda: So what is to you? You are also a created being. He's also created being. That's the (indistinct). You are not creator of the (indistinct)
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But you say that there was more intelligent life previously, whereas we see these dinosaurs were previously.
Prabhupāda: But you do not see, you simply imagine.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No. We have the skeletons.
Devotee: We have the bones, the bones of animals.
Prabhupāda: But that's all right. There was a big animal, that's all. Just like you are a foolish animal, so there was a big animal. What is the difference? They are animals.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we have skeletons showing the men at that time also and their brains were very tiny.
Prabhupāda: That you say. But I don't believe it. I have not seen.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Well, they have skeletons in the museum.
Brahmānanda: Very thick skulls and very small brains.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Almost like a ape.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. There was a big animal. So what is the difference? They are animals, big or small. You have seen a skeleton of pygmy man also. So where is that man now? You have seen pygmy man, you don't require archeological. So where is that man?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No, they don't live any more. Now we are more intelligent. Previously there were pygmy men, very less intelligent, small, not nice looking. Now we have got more...
Prabhupāda: According to our śāstra you are going to be pygmy men. That is, there is proof, because you are not as strong as your forefathers. That's a fact. You are becoming dwarfer, dwarfer. According to our śāstra you come to that pygmy, (indistinct) in due course of time. As it was before, so again the time is repeating, history repeating.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Then that means our pygmy men were from a previous Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Yes. We say there was Kali-yuga. Four yugas are changing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Dinosaurs also?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: They're from Kali-yuga?
Prabhupāda: Kali-yuga, any yuga. The things are going on by nature's way, prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni guṇaiḥ karmāṇi... [Bg. 3.27]. They're going on.
Devotee: But if we have bones from so many yugas ago...
Prabhupāda: That's all right. There are 8,400,000 species of life. You have seen some of them. That's all.
Devotee: But the question is that why are there not any findings from only 5,000 years ago at the time when Kṛṣṇa was here and...
Prabhupāda: Your knowledge has come to Darwin's theory for 200, not even 200 years.
Devotee: I was just talking to Kārttikeya. They have found this city 4,000 years old, (4,500).
Devotee: Where's that?
Devotee: It's near Kurukṣetra, I think.
Brahmānanda: Yeah, there's one in West India.
Prabhupāda: So many things are coming according to their research.
Conversation with Devotees -- April 14, 1975, Hyderabad