Paramahaṁsa: Last week, Prabhupāda, you may have read that the Russians and the Americans sent up two rockets that met in outer space.
Prabhupāda: Hm, so what is the benefit?
Paramahaṁsa: Well, this is the point, is that... It was called the Soyez flight. In any case, they have announced... They made a joint speech where they said, "Together we can conquer outer space. That is the purpose." So now the Russians and the Americans are trying to get... to combine in their efforts to conquer.
Prabhupāda: Bora bora goye gala rasatala, vetta gore bole katha jala(?). There is a river. The horses, they can swim. So the river was so ferocious and many horses drowned. So one vetta gora, means third-class horse, he said, "How was the water? Let me try."
Paramahaṁsa: (laughing) They all drowned.
Prabhupāda: The vetta gora. These are vetta gora, horses with (remedy?).
Satsvarūpa: But they can point to progress, not that they're all drowning.
Prabhupāda: What is that progress?
Satsvarūpa: Well, people never thought they could reach the moon. Now they think they have.
Prabhupāda: So that is not progress. Progress means when you conquer death. That is progress.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Why is that the only progress?
Prabhupāda: Because whatever you do, death will come and take it. So where is guarantee that you will enjoy?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Relatively we can enjoy.
Prabhupāda: Relatively everyone... The ant also thinking, "I am also some important..." That is Kṛṣṇa's proposal, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi duḥkha-doṣānu... [Bg. 13.9]. You are trying to get out of all kinds of miserable conditions, but here is your real misery, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi: birth, death, old age... First of all conquer them. Then talk of advance. You cannot conquer even on disease. There are so many persons suffering from disease. You cannot stop it, and you're making progress? What is that progress? It is all rascaldom.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But we see that even your devotees, they are also subject to birth, death, disease and old age.
Prabhupāda: No, we do not say that we are making progress like you. We are trying to make spiritual progress. We are servant of God. We never say that we are very big men, Vaiṣṇava. Tṛṇād api sunīcena. We think most insignificant creature.
Paramahaṁsa: But what of our efforts to conquer cancer and tuberculosis?
Prabhupāda: No. Because we are conquering to... We are trying to avoid death. Then it is... Everything is cured. Cancer, cancer's father, grandfather, everything is cured. So we are trying for that. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness, that "If you simply understand Me..." Janma karma ca divyaṁ me yo jānāti tattvataḥ. Simply if you understand what is Kṛṣṇa, why He comes, what is the purpose, then you become conqueror over death. That is our philosophy. Simply by understanding Kṛṣṇa. That is our progress, how much we have understood Kṛṣṇa. And when one understands fully Kṛṣṇa-fully it is not possible; at least partially—he is conquering over death. Tyaktvā dehaṁ punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. That is real human life, how to conquer over death. Aihiṣṭhaṁ yat tat punar-janma-jāyāya. All the great sages and big, big kings, they left everything, went to the forest for austerity, penance. Why? To conquer over death. That is the mission. That... Everyone can do that, human life. And that is plainly explained in the Bhagavad-gītā, "Simply try to understand Me and you conquer over death." Simple thing.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But still we see, the Vaiṣṇavas... They may argue like this, that... A karmī may say that "Still, how do we know that you have conquered over death, because you're still..."
Prabhupāda: You cannot know. Because you are foolish, you cannot know. Just like the example is given: there is reel. You know? What is called? The children...
Jayatīrtha: Ferris wheel?
Prabhupāda: No, no. In your country there is not, but in India there is a reel, reel-like. It rounds the thread for flying kite. What is called?
Kṛṣṇa-kanti: Just a ball of string.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Spool.
Paramahaṁsa: Kite line.
Prabhupāda: Kite line? How it is?
Paramahaṁsa: How it is? It's a line for a kite, and it's wound upon on a stick, and to make the kite go higher you unleash...
Prabhupāda: Yes. So it is going on. Sometimes the kite is going on, it is also rounding. And when the kite is coming down, that is also rounding. But you see one thing. But one thing is coming down; one is going up.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: So it's defective vision which...
Prabhupāda: Yes. Just like a cat catching a rat in the mouth, his position, and catching the cub, kit, what is called?
Prabhupāda: You see that it is on the mouth, but one is feeling pleasure, and one is feeling finished. (laughter)
Yadubara: The materialists say that it's very morbid to talk so much about death. They say it is very depressing to speak so much about death.
Prabhupāda: Because they are rascals, they cannot conquer. Everyone doesn't like death, but because they cannot conquer, they say like that, "Grapes are sour. Don't bother." After jumping, jumping, jumping, when the grapes were not available, "It is sour, no use."
Rādhāvallabha: We have also got a method of conquering death. We are planning now to freeze... When there is some illness that will cause death we will freeze the body, and when the cure for the disease is discovered we will wake it up.
Prabhupāda: That is same as death. That freezing itself is death, but the rascal does not know that it is death.
Rādhāvallabha: But later on we will thaw the body out and cure it.
Prabhupāda: "Later on," that is their post-dated check.
Paramahaṁsa: But then they say this, "In a hundred years, when we discover the cure, then we will bring you out and cure you."
Hṛdayānanda: Or eat him.
Prabhupāda: So you will never discover the cure, and he will never come out. Now somebody was saying that this freezing, the body within, they decompose. The parts of the body are separate. That is... As we have... You take the frozen vegetable. It is tasteless. It is decomposed.
Paramahaṁsa: So actually it comes down to what Tamāla Kṛṣṇa asked. For example, the scientists may say, "Well, you say that we have a life after death, that we should conquer over death, but I cannot see it. I cannot see anyone who has come back."
Prabhupāda: You cannot see even what is there after hundred years. What is the value of your eyes? Why you are proud of your eyes?
Paramahaṁsa: So you say it's based on faith.
Prabhupāda: Not faith, it is fact. Just like if somebody says me, "The other side is Japan." I cannot see, so I may disbelieve. But that's a fact; Japan is there.
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: But others have seen.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Therefore you have to hear from a person who has seen.
tad viddhi praṇipātena
upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ
Darśinaḥ means one who has seen.
Rādhāvallabha: How do we know he has seen?
Paramahaṁsa: We have to have faith again then.
Prabhupāda: What is that?
Paramahaṁsa: To begin to believe that you have seen, I must have faith in you.
Prabhupāda: Yes, that faith. How do you believe there is Japan?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Faith.
Prabhupāda: Have you seen?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No.
Prabhupāda: Then why do you believe?
Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Faith.
Hṛdayānanda: Every day on the news, every day on television a man comes on and he says what's happening all around the world, and everyone accepts. No one has ever seen any of those places.
Prabhupāda: You have to believe.
Satsvarūpa: Why is it that people are so disinclined to listen to our authority—that they all take the scientists' authority—if it's just one authority or another?
Prabhupāda: Because they are nondevotee. That is the defect. More the nondevotee, more rascal mūḍha, duṣkṛtina, mūḍha... They cannot. Duṣkṛtino mūḍhaḥ, na prapadyante. Māyayāpahṛta-jñāna: "Knowledge has been taken away by māyā." [break] ...more you become atheist, the more you become blind. This is the point. [break] ...given this maxim in our Back to Godhead, "Where there is God there is no nescience." [break] ...preaching, back to God. "If you want to know things are there, then come back to God. Don't go this side; come this side." This side means he will be drowned. There are two sides. If somebody unnecessarily goes this side, he is death, and this side, he is saved. So one who is going this side we are asking back to Godhead, "Come in this side." If one goes this side, he will find the downtown, so many nice buildings, parks and everything. And the boy who goes this side, he will die.
Morning Walk -- July 24, 1975, Los Angeles