Is God Under Your Rule?

Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa is not God.

Indian man (2): According to him.

Indian man (3): Lord Kṛṣṇa was the greatest man ever born. He was not God.

Indian man (2): You see, he has got the principles of Ārya-samāj. Because he is... "Everybody is God." That is his... They are brainwashed. Brainwash is there.

Prabhupāda: What is God? Let us have, understand.

Indian man (3): God has no form.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Indian man (3): Why? Because that is a principle.

Prabhupāda: Why?

Indian man (3): That's the principle.

Prabhupāda: That is your principle.

Indian man (3): He has given all the principles and these principles they taught us...

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. You say God has no form.

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: That is your principle, not others'. You cannot say that is the principle. That is your principle.

Indian man (3): But, sir, there are certain principles laid down.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Indian man (3): And He Himself also cannot break those principles.

Prabhupāda: What is this principle? You have got form, and God has no form?

Indian man (3): Yes.

Prabhupāda: What God has done, fault?

Indian man (3): If He will take form, then He is just a...

Prabhupāda: That is your word.

Indian man (2): That is what we are.

Prabhupāda: No, no. That is your word.

Indian man (2): According to philosophy. It is not my philosophy...

Prabhupāda: Yes, it is your philosophy.

Indian man (2): It is not my philosophy.

Prabhupāda: Because just like you say, "God has no form," we say, "God has form." That is your philosophy.


Indian man (3): Then we have to find out.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then we have to discuss whether God has form or no form. That will be philosophy. That will be philosophy. If you say, "God has no form," if I say, "God has form," then I don't fol...

Indian man (3): God is sarva-vyāpaka. He cannot be sarva-vyāpaka if He takes form.

Prabhupāda: No, that is your thinking. You do not know what is meant by sarva-vyāpaka.

Indian man (4): Sarva-vyāpaka means everywhere

Prabhupāda: That you do not know how... Just like the sun is sarva-vyāpaka. Is it not?

Indian man (3): What is that?

Prabhupāda: Sun, the sunshine, yes, it is... We call now it is day. Just hear. This is day because the sunlight is there. At night we don't say it is day. Is it not?

Indian man (3): "We" means actually...

Prabhupāda: Any of... Every one of us.

Indian man (3): When we don't see, then we say that it is not there.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Yes. Yes.

Indian man (3): Sun is not... Sun, of course, is there, but light is not there.

Prabhupāda: Hear. The light... As soon as the light is there, you understand the sun is there. Is it not?

Indian man (3): Yes, sun is there.

Prabhupāda: Wherefrom the light is coming? From the sun. But you see the sun has form. So from the form the light is coming. So the light is sarva-vyāpaka

Indian man (3): If it is sarva-vyāpaka...

Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Light is sarva-vyāpaka.

Indian man (3): But if there is some obstruction, then it cannot...

Prabhupāda: We have no question of obstruction. Even there is obstruction...

Indian man (2): Obstruction will be by you only.

Indian man (3): Not by me only. (laughter) No, not by me.

Indian man (2): What is the independence mean? You can go up to Him.

Prabhupāda: Just see. Light is there. If you close your eyes there is no light. That is another thing. But light is there. Everyone understand now it is day.

Indian man (3): That light is from God.

Prabhupāda: Yes.

Indian man (3): Sun has no...

Indian man (2): Let him finish.

Prabhupāda: Let me finish. Your "God has no form"—I am trying to explain to that. Now, you say, your reason, the sarva-vyāpaka. Sarva-vyāpaka, I am giving this example. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but wherefrom the sunlight is coming, it has got a form. So the sarva-vyāpaka, that energy is there. That is called Brahman. That is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): But what is that sun?

Prabhupāda: Whatever it may be, it is example. It is example that this sarva-vyāpaka-prakāśa is coming from the sun globe. So sun globe is localized. Everyone can see. And this prakāśa is coming from Him. Similarly, the sarva-vyāpaka energy is extended everywhere, but it is coming from Kṛṣṇa.

Indian man (3): Coming, right. But that has no form.

Prabhupāda: Why no form? You can see.

Indian man (3): But you see the mat..., a material.

Prabhupāda: It is a matter... You have no idea without matter. How you can say of spirit? You have no idea.

Indian man (3): God is not matter.

Prabhupāda: That's all right, but you cannot...

Indian man (3): This is not a direct...

Prabhupāda: You are accepting God is impersonal because He is sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Sarva-vyāpaka... He can be... You are thinking in your own way, that you are sitting here; you are not sarva-vyāpaka. You are vyāpaka here only, so you are thinking God is like you.

Indian man (3): No, I am not thinking like that.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is your defect.

Indian man (3): On the contrary, that is...

Prabhupāda: Aiye aiye. That is your defect. You are comparing God with your existence.

Indian man (3): I am not comparing with God.

Prabhupāda: Then... I am giving you example that instead of sun having form, he is sarva-vyāpaka. That is my point. The sun and the sunlight is nondifferent. The sunlight is sarva-vyāpaka, but the sun is localized. That is my point.

Indian man (3): Sun is localized, but what is sun, first of all? Sun is a creation of God.

Yaśomatīnandana: He's giving an example.

Prabhupāda: No, no, no. If creation of God can act like this, that it...

Indian man (3): Creation of God means some matter.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that's all right.

Indian man (3): Now, God has no matter.

Prabhupāda: That's all right. You see, God... If creation of God can act like this, that he is localized, at the same time he is sarva-vyāpaka and God cannot be localized and sarva-vyāpaka?

Indian man (3): How can God be localized?

Prabhupāda: Then God is under your rule?

Indian man (3): No, sir. Not under my rule. It is His rule that He...

Prabhupāda: No, no. We can see the creation of God. It is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka. And God, according to him, cannot be localized. He is simply sarva-vyāpaka. Why? Why? The creator can create something that he is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka, and the creator cannot be localized and at the same time sarva-vyāpaka?

Indian man (3): Sir, if there is...

Prabhupāda: No, first of all let us settle this.

Indian man (2): First of all let us settle this one thing

Prabhupāda: Settle this. I create something which has got so power that it is localized, at the same time sarva-vyāpaka. And I myself, I cannot be sarva-vyāpaka. What is this logic?

Indian man (3): The sun rays are not actually... When there is hindrance, it cannot be on the other side.

Prabhupāda: No, hin... There is question of hindrance. I am seeing as it is. That is another thing.

Indian man (2): Hindrance is already there, as I described before. (laughter) Swamijī, my request is that the world is divided into two main things. One, some people believe, a group, believe that world is formless. Some say world has got a form. So instead of entering to this controversy, why we should not agree that whatever you...?

Prabhupāda: No, this is not controversy. This is fact, that God is... That is... We learn from śāstra,

vadanti tat tattva-vidas

tattva yaj jñānam advayam

brahmeti paramātmeti

bhagavān iti śabdyate

 [SB 1.2.11]

The Absolute Truth is manifested in three ways: impersonal Brahman, and all-pervading Paramātmā, and Personality of Godhead-brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti śabdyate—but they are one and the same. This is the verdict of the śāstra. So we can understand from this example that the sun is localized. Everyone can see. At the same time, sunshine is all-pervading, and within the sun globe there is a predominating deity. He is a person. Similarly, originally God is person, and then, when He expands, all-pervasive, that is Paramātmā. And when He expands by His energy, that is Brahman. This is understanding. Brahmeti paramātmeti bhagavān iti. Now somebody, they finish their business by realizing the impersonal Brahman, and somebody finishes his business by realizing the localized Paramātmā, yogis. Jñānīs, yogis. And the bhaktas, they come to the real, original source of everything, Kṛṣṇa. That is the difference.


Morning Walk -- September 26, 1975, Ahmedabad


Kartikeya: Do you believe in the Vedas?

Indian man (5): Yes, we believe in Vedas.

Kartikeya: Who gave Vedas?

Indian man (3): Īśvara.

Kartikeya: Who is that?

Indian man (3): God. God.

Kartikeya: No, without a personality nobody can write. You cannot write your signature without a body.

Indian man (3): How did you get your actually words? From where? From where did you get your words?

Kartikeya: Well, I have got my body, so I can speak with my body. I cannot speak without my body.

Indian man (5): At that time He acted like a magician, that God. How can He reduce it into writing?

Prabhupāda: Bhagavān, original Absolute Truth... (Hindi) Janmādy asya yataḥ: [SB 1.1.1] "The Absolute Truth is that from whom or from which everything emanates." (Hindi) Everything is manufactured, everything. Now, that original source...

Indian man (3): (Hindi)

Prabhupāda: (Hindi)

Indian man (3): There are three things: jīvātmā, Paramātmā or prakṛti. (Hindi) Who is not connected with anything, He is, simply is a guide. He guides.

Prabhupāda: So formless guidance... (Hindi)?

Indian man (3): Formless guidance, Īśvara... (Hindi)

Indian man (2): If you want a guidance, then you have to become formless.

Prabhupāda: Yes, yes. You are talking. You are not formless. You are giving us guidance, you are talking, but you are not formless.

Indian man (3): Guidance I am not giving. It is guidance of God. It is given by God. It is given by God.

Prabhupāda: No, no. How? No, no. If guidance cannot be given by a formless...

Indian man (3): I am a medium simply. The guidance is given by God. That is through Vedas.

Prabhupāda: These are contradictory. You are talking something, you are form, and you say the original talker is formless. How it is possible?

Kartikeya: Sir, you are building building. There is no architect? How in the building there are no architects? Anything that is made must have got an architect or... Whole universe is there

Indian man (3): But none of us... I believe that there is God.

Kartikeya: No, no, but why don't you give a body?

Indian man (3): But why do you give Him a form, actually?

Kartikeya: Because we have got forms. He has got form.

Indian man (3): Just because you have got form, He must also have a form?

Kartikeya: Yes, because we are His reflection; we are His particles.

Indian man (3): No, no, no. We are not His particles. I say it is not...

Prabhupāda: No, no, where you get this idea that formless can give guidance? Where do you get this idea? Where is your experience? Your experience is as soon as there is guidance, there is a form. So how do you get this expe... Why do you talk something which is not within your experience, nobody's experience? As soon as you talk of guidance, there is form.

Indian man (3): But what is air?

Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all answer this. Why do you get this idea that a guidance comes from formless? Just like this government. We do not see that the guidance coming from the sky. There is Indira Gandhi; there is minister.

Indian man (3): But these are all in the material world.

Prabhupāda: So how do you say that guidance is coming from formless? Because you have no such experience, why do you say something which is not within your experience?

Indian man (3): So whatever we experience should be...

Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Otherwise you cannot talk. If you cannot say anything which is not within your experience, then what is the meaning of that talk?

Indian man (2): Even if there is no form, we have to create a form.

Indian man (3): But why?

Indian man (2): Just to have our faith in that form.

Indian man (3): Now, actually, when you pray God actually, do you open your eyes or do you close your eyes? What do you do?

Indian man (2): We close our eyes. We also...

Indian man (3): Why do you close the eyes?

Prabhupāda: No, we don't close. We are going to see God in the temple, so we don't close. You close, and therefore you cannot understand. We see in eye to eye. (laughter)

Indian man (3): So He is only in that particular place. He cannot be everywhere.

Prabhupāda: No, He is everywhere. But you say, "He is everywhere, but He is not there." That is your idea. You say...

Indian man (3): No, no, no, sir. No, sir. He is everywhere. He is throughout.

Prabhupāda: Then why not in the temple?

Indian man (3): He is everywhere, I say. He is everywhere.

Prabhupāda: Then you are in the... He's in temple. Then why do you say He is not in the temple?

Indian man (3): But who says?

Prabhupāda: You say.

Indian man (3): I don't say that. Not that only. Not that only.

Prabhupāda: If He is everywhere, why He is not in the temple?

Indian man (3): But not in that form.

Prabhupāda: That is your version. (laughter) That is your version.

Harikeśa: Then there is somewhere where He is not.

Indian man (3): No, no. I say... No, no, no. Somewhere... He is everywhere.

Yaśomatīnandana: He is a mūrti also.

Indian man (3): Everywhere. But He is not that mūrti. He is not that mūrti.

Prabhupāda: That is your version. But we are not so fool that we are going to see something which is not God. We are not so fool.

Indian man (3): Well, then, your opinion may be different. My opinion is quite different.

Prabhupāda: Yes. That is another thing. But when we go to see God in the temple, we see God, nothing else. That experience you haven't got.

Indian man (3): Mūrti, simply that mūrti? Nothing else.

Prabhupāda: Yes, that is...

Indian man (2): The confirmation you haven't got at the present moment. Thereafter you will get a realization, afterwards. (laughter) [break]

Indian man (2): And about forty people are here all over, coming since about fifteen years, or twenty years.

Prabhupāda: Caitanya Mahāprabhu, when He entered Jagannātha temple, He immediately fainted: "Oh, here is my Lord." So it is the question of seeing.

Indian man (6): But what is our inner things? How we know it? In our classical music, actually Lord Kṛṣṇa is the main figure in all... In even Muslim classical music, they also pray Lord Kṛṣṇa.

Prabhupāda: Premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. We have to create our eyes to see. Hare Kṛṣṇa.


Morning Walk -- September 26, 1975, Ahmedabad





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