Amogha: Śrīla Prabhupāda? Sometimes when we are speaking, people say, in the questions they say, "Why do you say this is a science? It seems that this must be belief. Because science..."
Prabhupāda: Your so-called science is also belief. You believe in one way, we believe in another way. And if you call it science, then it is also science. If you call your belief as science, then why shall I not call my belief as science? Your is also belief. You have never gone to the moon, and you are talking of so many things about moon. That is your belief.
Amogha: But they say with science they can prove so many things.
Prabhupāda: We can also prove. You cannot prove. Just like you say the life is made of chemicals. You prove it. Take chemicals and make a life, then it is true. Otherwise it is a humbug. Why do you say like that, that life is made of chemicals? You cannot prove it.
Amogha: I do not say that life is made of chemicals.
Prabhupāda: They say.
Amogha: They say. Yes.
Prabhupāda: Yes, these rascals say.
Amogha: But they say they can prove that there are chemicals...
Prabhupāda: You prove it. You take the chemicals and prove-produce life. Why do you talk nonsense? First of all prove. You did not produce a life, even an ant, in the laboratory, and still you say life is a combination of chemicals. Why do you say like that? Challenge them.
Gaṇeśa: We cannot see souls, Śrīla Prabhupāda. It appears that matter comes from matter, or life comes from matter. We cannot see the soul.
Prabhupāda: You cannot see, but you can perceive. If life comes from matter, then when there is a dead body, put matter and make it alive. Or put chemicals. Chemical is also matter. Make him alive.
Paramahaṁsa: We made some, um, um...
Prabhupāda: No, no, first of all this is my challenge: that here is a dead body, so bring some chemicals. Just like a motorcar stopped for want of chemical, petrol. So you bring petrol and it will be started. Similarly, you bring some chemical and start it again.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, that will require some time to find the chemicals.
Prabhupāda: That means you fool. You are talking nonsenses. You do not know what is that chemical. You prove yourself a rascal.
Paramahaṁsa: Well, we accept that we don't know, but we are trying to learn.
Prabhupāda: Then if you don't know, why do you talk nonsense? First of all you know, then talk. That is science.
Amogha: But the way we built this civilization and technology...
Prabhupāda: It is not civilization. It is animal. You are eating meat, and you are civilized? The tigers eat meat, the dogs eat meat. A human being, why should he eat meat?
Paramahaṁsa: But there are so many wonderful things taking place, brain transplants, and so many other things.
Prabhupāda: That's all right. You are not civilized so long you are eating meat. You are dogs and cats and tigers, that's all. The tiger may be a very strong animal, but it is not to be called that he is civilized. Nobody will say the tiger is civilized.
Amogha: But we have made airplanes and cars, and if we had only waited until we knew, we never could have made it. But by trying...
Prabhupāda: All right. You have made some technical advancement. That does not mean you are civilized. Civilized means the Aryans. They know what is the soul. That is civilization.
Paramahaṁsa: But we have seen in the Eastern countries where the people don't eat meat, they are at the same time very primitive. Very uncivilized, like savages.
Amogha: They don't have enough food.
Paramahaṁsa: No technology, no education.
Prabhupāda: Because you have plundered them for the last two thousand years. You rascals, rogues, you have plundered. You have taken all their money, all their jewels, all their gold, and made British Museum. (laughter) It is due to you. (noise in background) What is the dog? Some dog?
Amogha: Oh, that is the siren. You mean the siren?
Prabhupāda: No, no. Some bird.
Amogha: Oh, yeah. In Bhagavad-gītā we claim that it is a fact scientifically that Kṛṣṇa appeared on earth and so many things. But actually isn't it because we believe that the Bhagavad-gītā is true that we think it is scientific? Because we believe it. But someone else would say, "I don't believe it, so for me it's not scientific."
Prabhupāda: Why it is not scientific? If Bhagavad-gītā says, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14], by eating sufficient grains, the living entity become flourished. So, can you deny it?
Amogha: That must be true.
Prabhupāda: Everything is true. If you think it properly, you'll find it is all true. Bhagavad-gītā says, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭaṁ: [Bg. 4.13] "By Me, the four divisions of human soceity are made." The most intelligent class, the brāhmaṇa, who knows the soul, God, etc., by their character, by their behavior. That is brāhmaṇa class. This is the most perfect way of keeping society. Unless there is a class which is very intelligent who know what is God, what is soul, then what is the civilization? Simply motorcar drivers? Is that civilization? Where is the brāhmaṇa? This is not civilization. Simply some artisans and workers, motorcar drivers, mill workers, where is civilized man, who knows God, who knows soul, who knows how to conduct the human society to the perfection? Where is that man? It is not civilization.
Paramahaṁsa: But we have philosophers and poets.
Prabhupāda: They are all loafer class. They have no information of the soul. They are studying in the dead matter, that's all. Freud and others, Darwin. What do they know?
Amogha: There are also so many priests and rabbis, the Pope.
Prabhupāda: But what do they know about the soul, about God? First thing is that there is a supreme authority. You are not independent. So if you do not know who is that supreme authority, what is the value of your knowledge? You have to accept there is a supreme authority, because you are not independent. But you do not know. Just like a rascal, he does not know about the government. What kind of man he is? He's a rascal. A civilized man means he knows what is government, what is the history of government. That is civilized. And if he doesn't know what is government, he is simply living there, he's a third class man. So you have to accept there is a government of the whole universal affair, but you do not know it. Then you are third-class man. You are not human being; you are animal. Animal does not know. This is the proof that you are animal, you are not human being. A human being, at least a class of man there must be—brāhmaṇa. Brāhma jānāti iti brāhmaṇaḥ, one who knows how things are going on. We know that. We Kṛṣṇa conscious people, we know. Therefore we are civilized.
Morning Walk -- May 10, 1975, Perth