Hariśauri: They're actually very expert at avoiding the real issues.
Prabhupāda: That is.... A child can also do that. That is not expert. A child can advance in foolishness without any guidance. If the child touches fire and if somebody says, "This is advancement of knowledge," then imagine what is the position. Similarly, all these rascals, they are endeavoring. Just like Hiranyakasipu. He endeavored all through how to become immortal, which is impossible. But he advanced in that foolishness. Hiranyakasipu was such a big demon, his only idea was that "The devatās, they attack us sometimes. But now I shall attack them and plunder them. But because I am now practically immortal, what they will do? They cannot kill me. So I will go on with my demonic activities, and then they cannot do anything." This is his foolishness. He did not know that he's the greatest foolishness that he was trying to become immortal. When it was said by Brahmā that "No, no, it is not possible," still, he expected that "I shall become immortal." Brahmā flatly said, "No, no, this is not possible. I am not immortal. How can I give you immortality?" But he would not hear even Brahmā. He thought that, "In an indirect way I shall befool this man, Brahmā." "All right, sir, then give me this benediction." "What is that?" "I'll not die in the land." "All right." "Not in the water." "Yes." "Not in the air." "No, yes." So he thought that "The three things finished. Then where shall I die? There are three things only, land, water, sky. So he has given me benediction I shall not die anywhere of these three. So I have cheated now." And then "I shall not die in daytime." "Yes." "I shall not die in nighttime." But māyā dictated that there is another space or another place between day and night. (laughs) That he forgot. That is called sandhyā. That is accepted. But he forgot that. And Kṛṣṇa is more intelligent. He.... Hiraṇyakaśipu was not killed in daytime or nighttime. He was killed in the sandhyā. And so far land, sky, and water is concerned, that also was played with tricks, that He killed him on the lap. You cannot say it is land; you cannot say it is sky, you cannot say it is water. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind that His devotee, Brahma, has given him this benediction.... Without touching all those points. Hiranyakasipu could not accuse Brahma that "Sir, you have cheated me." "No. Whatever you wanted, I have given you. You have cheated yourself. You do not know that your knowledge is imperfect. You cannot make it perfect. So that is your folly. But so far I am concerned, whatever you wanted, I said, 'Yes. Yes. Yes.' But I said also that 'In spite of all this, you'll never live.' That is not possible. But, you fool, you did not take care of it. So in spite of cunningness, you remained a fool. You thought that you are very intelligent, cunning. 'I am now fully equipped; nobody can kill me.' But I said that it is not possible. I never cheated you. You cannot say that I have cheated you."
Hariśauri: It's just like in the law. They try to make the law so perfect that no one can get around it. But always there is some very smart lawyer who finds a loophole.
Prabhupāda: Oh, yes. Big lawyer means to find out fault with the present law. That is big lawyer. [break] ...to be more intelligent than Kṛṣṇa. That is.... (laughs) But these rascals are trying to be more intelligent. Therefore they are called rascals, fools, mūḍha.
Prabhupāda: Ah. Moghāśā mogha-karmaṇo mogha-jñāna-vicetasaḥ [Bg. 9.12]. [break] .... Kṛṣṇa says simple thing, "You surrender unto Me. You'll get all protection." "No, no. That is not possible. I must do according to my own whims. Why shall I surrender?" "All right, go on. I'll give you facility for executing your whims. You'll get it. You do. Try your..." This is going on. Kṛṣṇa is giving good advice. He'll not accept it. So Kṛṣṇa is so kind, "All right, you do in your own way. I shall give you all facility." This is going.... That facility is māyā, his mind and māyā. He is desiring. That mind is also given by māyā, so that he can punish him very severely. So māyā has given us mind: "Now you go on desiring. After desiring, desiring, I will give you facility."
Hariśauri: Mind is an agent of punishment.
Prabhupāda: Yes, this material mind. You see a madman. He is also acting in his mind. The mind is polluted; he is acting differently. Mind is there, but it is covered by some infection. Therefore a madman is thinking this way, that way, this way, that way. That's all.
Hariśauri: Constant anxiety.
Prabhupāda: Useless. Killing himself.
Hariśauri: Sometimes a person who goes mad, they have to put them in a padded cell so that they don't harm themselves.
Prabhupāda: Yes. Otherwise he will create disadvantage to others. This is the cell—whole material world. You keep yourself within this cell and go on with your madness of mind. Still, Vedic instruction is there that if you do this way, then you go to that planet. If you do this way, then you go to here. Still, there is good. But within that, Kṛṣṇa is saying, mad-yājino 'pi yānti mām [Bg. 9.25], "But you can come to Me also." But he will not take that instruction.
Hariśauri: Coming to Kṛṣṇa means they have to give up all their own personal desires.
Prabhupāda: Yes, everything is there; simply we have to accept it. If we don't accept it, we suffer. What can be done? If you accept the path of going to hell in spite of higher authorities' instruction, then who can save me? That is going on.
Prabhupāda: He is thinking he has become very intelligent that he can deceive God, deceive spiritual master and be happy. He does not know that he can neither deceive God or His representative, guru. That is not possible. But he is thinking like that. And he is being put into suffering condition. Just like ordinary thieves and rogues. They think, "I am deceiving government." But government has got so many agents that he will be arrested. But this sinful government may not be so expert, but how he can deceive the government of Kṛṣṇa? That is not possible.
Harikeśa: There's undercover agents in everybody.
Prabhupāda: Everywhere, every direction.
Hariśauri: The land, the sky, the...
Hariśauri: Sun, moon, everything is witness.
Prabhupāda: They are bearing the witness. And especially He is sitting within the heart of everyone, īśvaraḥ sarva... How can you deceive Him?
Hariśauri: Kṛṣṇa knows more about what's going on than we do.
Prabhupāda: Anumantā upadṛṣṭā. Kṣetra-jñaṁ cāpi māṁ viddhi sarva-kṣetreṣu bhārata [Bg. 13.3]. How these rascals think that "I can deceive God"?
Room Conversation -- January 16, 1976, Māyāpur