Prabhupāda: Mind is subtle matter. Bhūmir āpo 'nalo vāyuḥ khaṁ mano buddhir.... Bhinnā prakṛtir aṣṭadhā [Bg. 7.4]. They are separated five material energies. Apareyam. They are inferior. Those who are in the mental platform, they are also inferior. The so-called philosopher, scientist and others, they are on the mental platform. Therefore they're inferior. Apareyam. These eight elements, those who are dealing with these eight elements, apara, inferior. And they are advertising that "We are superior." "The spiritual consciousness is brainwashed. We are superior." This is the fault. Of the inferior position, they are claiming superior position. Apareyam itas tu... And Kṛṣṇa is giving practical example: "Apareyam: this is inferior. Beyond this there is a superior nature. What is that? Jīva bhūta." Immediately. And still the rascal cannot understand what is superior, inferior. (Indian lady converses in Hindi with Prabhupāda) Chase after them, "Get out! Get out! Your visa is finished." (Hindi) Hundred cases. Hundred times hundred. (Hindi) [break]
Rāmeśvara: That is our argument.
Dr. Patel: It would be the brainwash. To have washed it against...
Prabhupāda: I am thinking of Kṛṣṇa, and if you stop me to think of Kṛṣṇa, is it not going against my thought? Bhagavad-gītā, it is recommended, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. So this is a standard thing. So I thinking of Kṛṣṇa. Why you should stop me? Is it not infringement my freedom?
Rāmeśvara: They argue that they are not stopping you from thinking about Kṛṣṇa. They want to stop you from being a member of the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement.
Prabhupāda: Why? If I have to think of Kṛṣṇa, I must be member of the society. Otherwise how can I think of? Suppose if I have to do business, share business, I have to become a member of the share market.
Rāmeśvara: They say that the way the society is managed...
Prabhupāda: You can say. But this is the system. If you have got some thought, you must mix with such similar thoughtful men. That is everywhere. The scholars, they associate; the medical men, they associate. How can you stop it?
Rāmeśvara: They don't think it's healthy.
Prabhupāda: They may think anything nonsense, but this is practically going on. The medical men, they make their association. Especially in your country, unless one is member of the medical association he cannot practice.
Rāmeśvara: But the medical association does not take up twenty-four hours.
Prabhupāda: No. Not only twenty-four hours, twenty-six hours.
Rāmeśvara: That is their charge, that it is too extreme. They say we isolate the devotees from the real world. We don't let them read newspapers, we don't let them...
Prabhupāda: That is your real world, but you do not know what is reality. Your real world is this body. But this body is not real. That, you rascal, you cannot understand. Your reality is this body, but body not real.
Rāmeśvara: Even if this world is not real, temporarily it's real.
Prabhupāda: Temporary, yes. So I am eternal. I must associate with eternity. Why shall I..., temporary. Suppose if somebody comes in India, American, that is his temporary residence. Why shall I accept India as everything? Similarly this body is another India or for Indian, American. It is temporary, asann, asat. Asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ [SB 5.5.4]. This body is temporary. That you have no knowledge. Why shall I be attached to the temporary things? I am the owner of the body, I am reality, so I must realize myself. Self-realization. This is self-realization, that "I am not this body, I am pure soul, Brahman." Ahaṁ brahmāsmi.
Dr. Patel: Even Jesus said so.
Prabhupāda: Christ said that if getting everything one loses his own soul... What is that?
Trivikrama: "What is the value?"
Prabhupāda: "What is the value?"
Rāmeśvara: They would say that we are ignoring this world and retreating from it.
Prabhupāda: We must! We must! You rascal! You do not know the science.
Trivikrama: They have their retreats and monasteries, Christians also.
Prabhupāda: We must. That is the science. That is... You do not know, because your tail is cut you want others also to cut his tail.
Rāmeśvara: Their main charge is that we are deceptive. In other words, we tell people that we are like this, but actually we are different. They say we tell people we will make them more intelligent...
Prabhupāda: If you are different, how the professors and scholars, they are accepting our (indistinct), they're taking our books?
Rāmeśvara: They say that's all right, but you practice differently than your books.
Prabhupāda: No. Our book says man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. We always think of Kṛṣṇa. We act according, strictly according to our books. That is our position.
Rāmeśvara: The book says that this is the highest consciousness. They say it is not complete, because it doesn't have anything to do with the real world.
Prabhupāda: But we say that you are rascals. That's all.
Dr. Patel: If they say we have nothing to do with real world, where does the real world go when they are sleeping? (indistinct) I think that you must go for that. No? We must find out the full according to their own folly, not according to our reason.
Rāmeśvara: Just... The example of their charge of deception is that we are the Hare Kṛṣṇas, but when we go to sell our books we are in disguise. Therefore people do not know that they are giving money to the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement. So they say our whole movement is like that in many different ways; we are tricking people.
Trivikrama: No, but the priests nowadays, they don't always wear the collar, because they want to feel comfortable with the people. They dress...
Rāmeśvara: They say "If people knew you were the Hare Kṛṣṇa, they would not give you so much money."
Haṁsadūta: Even the police, in order to catch a criminal, they sometimes go in disguise. They act as criminals, in order to catch a criminal. So we also have to do that. We have to act like demons sometimes.
Rāmeśvara: (laughing) To catch a demon.
Dr. Patel: These boys are very clever. (laughs)
Jagadīśa: Vāmanadeva also went in disguise. And Kṛṣṇa, Bhīma, and Arjuna went in disguise. They killed Jarāsandha.
Haṁsadūta: In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam you wrote about Prahlāda Mahārāja, they tried to find out "Where are these Vaiṣṇavas? They must be coming in disguise to teach the boys Hare Kṛṣṇa."
Prabhupāda: What is the wrong there?
Dr. Patel: (indistinct) American gangsters. You can't be gangsters. They will be gangsters.
Trivikrama: For Kṛṣṇa we can be anything.
Dr. Patel: You can't be gangsters. There is some difference between them and you.
Rāmeśvara: This scholar from Harvard University, he's explained it very nicely. He says that today Christianity and Judaism are materialistic, and the people who follow those religions have misunderstood their own faith, and the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement is reminding them. And it is the work of God.
Prabhupāda: How nice he has...
Rāmeśvara: His name is Dr. Harvey Cox. He is widely known all over the world as a leading Christian theologian. He has written many books. And he said that Christianity today is synonymous with profit, material gain, accumulation, performance, material success. So it has lost or it has forgotten its original message. And it takes something as exotic as the Hare Kṛṣṇa movement from India to remind a Christian that there's another way of life, based on simplicity and truth and spirituality.
Prabhupāda: He's right. And he's a very important man.
Rāmeśvara: He has joined this society to defend us. He's now traveling different places in the United States to speak on our behalf.
Prabhupāda: He's serious gentleman. That is wanted. Kṛṣṇa will help us.
Dr. Patel: Aldous Huxley is another, he's also very...
Trivikrama: He's dead.
Dr. Patel: He is dead. No? He is dead? How long?
Trivikrama: Since 1962.
Dr. Patel: I had no idea of it. I am reading his books thinking he is still alive.
Trivikrama: He's a Māyāvādī, anyway.
Trivikrama: Aldous Huxley.
Prabhupāda: Aldous Huxley. He is useless. Anyone connected with the Ramakrishna Mission is a useless. Immediately take it.
Dr. Patel: He was connected with Ramakrishna Mission.
Rāmeśvara: On one radio show they quoted from this Dr. Radhakrishnan that when you read Bhagavad-gītā you should not think that Kṛṣṇa is God. So then they say, "So even in India they reject this Hare Kṛṣṇa movement." They say "Look, this is the president of India. He is saying do not take Kṛṣṇa as God."
Prabhupāda: So even in your own country, the priest talks crazily. We should reply that. Why do you go to India? In your country, your countrymen take it.
Rāmeśvara: Jesus was crucified in his own country.
Dr. Patel: By his own men.
Prabhupāda: There is a Bengali proverb (Bengali). In a village, if a saintly person comes from outside, he is invited. And if a saintly person there is in the village, nobody cares for him.
Trivikrama: Yes. The Bible says the same.
Prabhupāda: (laughs, repeats saying)
Dr. Patel: This will create some difficulty for your movement?
Prabhupāda: We don't care for it. We will go on. Caravan will pass. Let the dogs bark.
Dr. Patel: The dogs may bite.
Prabhupāda: No. Barking dog never bites. (laughter) They simply make their show. Neither they can bite.
Morning Walk -- January 9, 1977, Bombay